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The speed of light is a speed limit in vacuum. The fabric of the universe (the vacuum itself) is not limited in expansion rate by the speed of light. Particles from these parts of the universe (about 43-46 billion light-years away) emitted their light somewhere near what would be our position less than 13.7 billion light years ago.

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The 'fabric' expands? What does it mean for nothingness to expand? How do we observe this?

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Well, if the space *between* objects is expanding faster than the speed of light, then those objects on the other side would be observed to move faster than light. We know that's not possible.

Or the light from those objects would make them appear as though they are closer than they really are, but then there'd be no way to tell the space was expanding.

Drew

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There's evidence of recessional velocities exceeding c. Relativity describes motion through space, so the expansion does not violate relativity. What it does is limit how far we can see; we are able to observe galaxies receding from us faster than c, but the light we see from them was emitted in the past.

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So lumeniferous ether is back...except instead of flowing, now it's expanding?

Let's see how long that model lasts.

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Penalty: An early, lingering death from cancer,
emphysema, or other smoking-caused ailment.

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Well, if the space *between* objects is expanding faster than the speed of light, then those objects on the other side would be observed to move faster than light. We know that's not possible.

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And that's the whole point, Drew, because that's exactly what we DO see. That they appear to be traveling at faster than c. Therefore, since material objects cannot travel faster than light - just as you say - the only possible explanation seems to be that the intermediate empty space, not being material, is precisely what's actually expanding at or near (or above) that rate.


edited to correct typo
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Light travels faster than sound; that's why people seem brighter - until you hear them.

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And that's the whole point, Drew, because that's exactly what we DO see. That they appear to be traveling at faster than c. Therefore, since material objects cannot travel faster than light - just as you say - the only possible explanation seems to be that the intermediate empty space, not being material, is precisely what's actually expanding at or near (or above) that rate.


edited to correct typo
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Light travels faster than sound; that's why people seem brighter - until you hear them.

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But, if the empty space between objects is expanding at >c, shouldn't it be "pushing" the objects farther apart at the same speed?

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But, if the empty space between objects is expanding at >c, shouldn't it be "pushing" the objects farther apart at the same speed?

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Hi, Joel,

Yep, and that's what's happening. Plus, they already have an independent speed of their own - momentum left over from the Big Bang.

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Light travels faster than sound; that's why people seem brighter - until you hear them.

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So lumeniferous ether is back...except instead of flowing, now it's expanding?

Let's see how long that model lasts.

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I can't see why the ether would be necessary - why do you say that, Drew?

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Light travels faster than sound; that's why people seem brighter - until you hear them.

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I can't see why the ether would be necessary - why do you say that, Drew?

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Well, you're treating space as though it's an entity of its own. Not just the distance between objects.

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Demand the establishment of the government in its rightful home at Disneyland.

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Hi, Joel,

Yep, and that's what's happening. Plus, they already have an independent speed of their own - momentum left over from the Big Bang.

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Hi Jerry,

I guess I didn't finish my thoughts.

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But, if the empty space between objects is expanding at >c, shouldn't it be "pushing" the objects farther apart at the same speed?

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Well, you're treating space as though it's an entity of its own. Not just the distance between objects.

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Hi Jerry,

I guess I didn't finish my thoughts. If the objects are being "pushed" by expanding space at >c then the objects (matter) are moving >c. Isn't that counter to Relativity?

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Hi, Joel,

Part of the problem lies in the fact that pushed isn't exactly the right word - but I'll be doggoned if I can think of a better one.

It doesn't conflict with Relativity because, in it's own frame of reference, none of the objects are moving anywhere near c.

I do realize the whole affair seems very confusing - but as I just said to Drew, that's the best idea they've been able to come with to explain what is very clearly being observed. To date, I've seen nothing in the form of an alternate idea expressed anywhere. {shrug}

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Light travels faster than sound; that's why people seem brighter - until you hear them.

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Can you suggest a better reason for the fact that distant objects are clearly being measured as moving at greated than c? That's what stumped the cosmologists until they came up with that particular idea to explain it.

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Hi, Joel,

Part of the problem lies in the fact that pushed isn't exactly the right word - but I'll be doggoned if I can think of a better one.

It doesn't conflict with Relativity because, in it's own frame of reference, none of the objects are moving anywhere near c.

I do realize the whole affair seems very confusing - but as I just said to Drew, that's the best idea they've been able to come with to explain what is very clearly being observed. To date, I've seen nothing in the form of an alternate idea expressed anywhere. {shrug}

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Seems a lot like driving at nearly the speed of light and then turning on your lights.


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"Never do anything that you wouldn't want to explain to the Paramedics."

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The 'fabric' expands? What does it mean for nothingness to expand? How do we observe this?

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Hey Old Dad,

How is their speed being measured? I don't even understand how a measurement can yield a result greater than c. We measure motion with respect to our frame of reference, not the space in-between.

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Hi, Drew,

I thought I mentioned the red shift but perhaps I didn't. The space in between has no effect on the measurement taken. We simply look at the Doppler effect on the spectra and it gives a very accurate measurement of the speed.

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Hey Old Dad,

Doppler shift measurements will asymptotically approach the speed of light as the wavelength increases to DC. There's no amount of doppler shift that will yield a speed greater than c.

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Hey Old Dad,

Doppler shift measurements will asymptotically approach the speed of light as the wavelength increases to DC. There's no amount of doppler shift that will yield a speed greater than c.

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The Doppler shift gives you the speed when the light was emitted, but the speed now is different since it took time for the light to reach us. The Doppler shift equation assumes that you are in the same Lorentz frame, and with expansion, you aren't.

There are several of these points addressed in Ned Wright's FAQ

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